I got this question recently and it made me think. Since this has been a long-term practice for me, I hadn’t really thought about it in a while, so I think this was a healthy exercise for me and my beliefs and convictions.
I have to start this answer back at PineCove Christian Family Camp (@ The Bluffs) in 2011. I was sitting there in the main conference room (called The Summit) looking at random old books on the bookshelf and one jumps out of me that entitled “Interviewing Your Daughter’s Date.” The author is Dennis Rainey, a well-known theologian from Little Rock and the founder of a ministry called Family Life. So I figure it’s got to be a reliable resource. Just to add some context about Family Life, the first Dennis Rainey experience I had was in 1996 at Promise Keepers in Texas stadium. I had rarely even heard of any Christian authors or speakers at the time, but I was blown away with his speech that he gave there to the 60,000+ men who packed the house. Fast forward a couple years later, I read his book called The Tribute which is about honoring our parents. This led me to write a tribute for my mother that was published in the front page of our local newspaper and one for my Father that we eventually posted on an entire wall for him at home. Fast forward several years later and Shawna and I went to a Weekend to Remember to learn about and renew our own marriage covenant. Fast forward a little while later and my daughter Abigail found herself in a small group led by a Family Life couple who became our friends and provided lots of guidance for us. Fast forward a few years later and I’m doing Passport to Purity with my 3 sons when each of them turned about 14. Fast forward a few years later, and I am doing Purity covenants with my daughters and even getting them purity rings. Honestly, the list goes on and on about areas where Family Life, what it teaches, and how it has been a part of our lives. I even worked as a consultant for their executive team at the time of transition when Dennis retired and the new CEO David took over. So it was fun to go back over all the history. OK context over now back to the question.
I think it’s important to lay out a disclaimer here. There’s not one single Bible verse that’s going to dictate the answer to this question. This is often true in life. There’s so many families and church traditions. And they’re also so many cultural norms that have been developed over the years all over the world. I have a Christian friend from India, who was arranged in marriage by his parents. He jokes and says that he fell in love with his wife on his wedding day. We might scratch our heads this as Americans or evangelicals or people from the south. But instead of questioning something that our Christian brothers and sisters do we might be better off examining the cultural norms that we’ve adopted (consciously or unconsciously). Why do we do the things we do? Why do we assume those things? I do think it’s important to start with Sacred Scripture and here’s just a random sample of what we can find that relates to the father’s relationship with his daughter and young men who are interested in her:
⁃ In Genesis there is a classic line that “a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.” This of course implies that prior to being united with her husband she is with her father and mother.
⁃ There’s the classic story of course of Abraham finding a spouse for Isaac. And then his son Jacob goes to find his spouse. In both these cases the men submitted to the fathers of the women for permission to marry the daughters.
⁃ We have the beautiful story of Ruth where she submitted to her mother-in-law after being given a marriage to her husband who died. And then we see the beautiful process that she went through to submit to Boaz as a potential suitor for him.
⁃ King Saul literally gave his daughter Michal as a reward to David. We would certainly balk at this in the modern age. It seems misogynistic and archaic but is is also biblical.
⁃ In the New Testament, it’s clear that children are to submit themselves to their parents. Of course God never gives us the expiration date on this command. So as Americans we assume that’s when the federal government says you’re an adult. And yet what about a man’s responsibility to provide and protect for his children. This doesn’t seem to magically expire on on a birthday. Even the celebration of birthdays is not biblical or explicitly stated. Some might say that when someone goes off to college then they’re independent. And yet the irony is that often those college experiences are provided for and funded by parents as the young adults are still dependent on multiple levels.
⁃ And then, of course, we have a classic line from song of Solomon. I think that nets it out very well: “do not arouse or awaken love until its so desires.”
Again, this was just a sample and there’s so much more to study and learn. But even just reading through this sample of scriptures are helpful. Because in all this we miss the biblical principles. My review of the Scriptures initially show this is not just about a transaction or finances or the material aspects of family and relationships. When we’re in these relationships we are sharing our hearts and souls. And in Proverbs it’s very clear that when the father is giving instruction to his son that he has to be extremely careful to “guard his heart” and to be careful about sharing it with others. I think the same thing is heavily implied for daughters and women as well. I think, as a father, I am a guardian of my daughters’ hearts. That is what we provide for and protect. And we all know the dating relationships will accidentally and unconsciously create sharing the most intimate parts of ourselves that may not be ready.
These biblical examples are not prescriptive or comprehensive. And yet they still help us to reveal our modern American lens or blind spots. We value things like patriotism, individualism, consumerism, and so many other “isms” and worldviews that have infiltrated our minds in our hearts. So today we teach the idea of choice and independence and autonomy. They seem to be biblical and right and true. But I am not sure that I could name Bible verses that promote these principles any more than the deference young men and women should show to parents and elders. The bottom line for both sides is this: it’s good to approach the issues with humility and to submit to the Scripture, to godly counsel, and to the church. That’s what I was doing the day that I picked up a book by Dennis Rainey, a well respected biblical teacher who has been teaching on marriage and family for 40 years. This is not to mention that he’s many years older than me and has four daughters. I honestly didn’t expect to agree with everything that he said. But I wasn’t going into it as a skeptic, but as a curious dad who just needs help. The older I get the more the Holy Spirit leads me to us trusting in the church, the family, and Christian mentors. I subtly submitted to Dennis Rainey simply because he had a book on the shelf at Pine Cove. “Why would Pinecove have an unbiblical book on their shelf?” I thought unconsciously to myself.
As a point of fact, I ended up agreeing with his theology and then found myself in a really small minority (a minority of 1 sometimes) of dads who required young men to come to me before they asked my daughters for a date, to be their boyfriend, or any other major milestone along the way. Now “require” is a stretch because I don’t like to micromanage things or police things. I’ve done a lot of interviews and conversations with young men. But it’s not been hard and fast. My daughters have not implemented it with religious dedication. Nor has there ever been any consequences on my part if they didn’t do as I expected or preferred. I’ve taken this approach because I think everyone needs a lot of grace and mercy as we stumble through practices that are not normative in our culture, but might be extremely honoring to God.
I don’t think I can write about this without thanking my daughters Abigail and Gracie. They have both walked a winding road with me from the start. I’ll never forget the first young man that asked me if he could be Abigail’s boyfriend. I declined the request and then He used some of my comments as a way to mock her in a social setting. That was frustrating for us both. Redemption story though…years later he matured greatly and I joined his support team as he went on mission. And Gracie was so gracious when I built a relationship with her first boyfriend. I’m sure that had to be awkward at times wondering what we were talking about. Even as I bump into him today there’s a genuine respect and relationship with him and his family (though their relationship changed after heading to college). There’s lots of stories like this and I just appreciate my daughters showing me the trust and respect they have for me.
And I can’t go very far without talking about how this affected my sons as well. They quickly caught onto this practice and started applying it to the families of girls they were interested in. This was a lot easier to be honest. Because I could quickly tell my sons almost exactly what other men would want to hear. And when my sons took the initiative they made it a lot easier on the dads. I can’t name one dad who didn’t immediately tell me how much he appreciated the initiative of my sons. Yes, many did not expect it or require it. Yes, many times my son thought it was overkill and unnecessary. But I’d much rather err on this side than the cultural gravitational pull that takes us in the other direction. I thank my three sons for their grace, for their obedience, and for their patience, as we all learned this practice was against the cultural grain.
I also don’t think that I can write about this subject without speaking of my son-in-law Lane Barber. Yes, he’s in a long list of many young men that I’ve met with over the years. And yet he stands apart in so many ways on a list of one. First of all, he was the only young man to take initiative on his own with me without any prompting by my daughter. Next, he certainly didn’t just use this as a one time event. He pursued me often and especially at major points in the relationship and when things were growing and developing. He asked me for a blessing for the first date. He asked me for a blessing to be her boyfriend. He asked me for a blessing to marry her. This does not mean our relationship was always roses. In fact, we both went through very difficult times. And one of the things that I’ve confessed to him (and feel the worst about) his how unresponsive I was to him when he was initiating with me. Initiative is such a simple demonstration of leadership. It takes courage and it ultimately makes things easier. Thank you Lane for setting the example!
I also think it’s good to give a shout out to my daughter-in-law Billie. During good times and bad she has been open to connecting with me. She has taken initiative with me for great conversations at key moments in life. She’s been vulnerable and honest. I’ve always felt at ease talking with her and getting to know her. None of this has been perfect. But it’s been real. I appreciate her willingness to engage with me and Shawna on her own and not just through our son Zach.
I have three remaining children who are not married. I have two sons and one daughter also. But like I said, this is not just about one time events. The communication and relationships with extended family continues both with my children who are married, and those who are not yet. All these interactions set the stage for years and years of relationships and generations to come. This is all about conversations not about negotiations or transactions. But I do think we’re at a critical inflection point. Because I’ve learned so much in the last 12 years and there’s so many great opportunities in the years to come. So this is a really good time to reflect on this and on all that God has taught us. I actually called Lane recently and asked him to write down what he learned from our past interactions. What did he do that he was glad about? What did I do that he wish I would’ve done differently? And vice versa on both sides? So much to learn!
If we approach this from the spirit of curiosity, I think there’s a lot to learn. If we approach this from the spirit of skepticism I’m not sure that anyone will benefit. It makes me think of a simple insight that I had after decades of parenting. Whenever our kids would come to us with questions we would often get sidetracked. And then I realized that I needed to understand where their question was coming from in order to truly respond to it. And so I came up with a response that helped me and them understand the nature of the situation. I would say, “just so I understand where you’re coming from… are you asking for my permission, my blessing, or my advice?” And of course these questions can be a bit awkward. But what’s even more awkward is moving forward in a conversation when this context is not clear. I know it’s convicting on both sides. Because as parents we offer a whole lot of unsolicited advice that our children don’t even ask for. So I give it even if it’s not the right time and they’re not open to it. And there are many times when I think they’ve already made up their mind about what they’re trying to do and they honestly just want us to get out of the way. I can understand both sides. In either case it’s better to be clear. I’m 51 years old and I still call my mother and my father and ask for their blessing. But at some point I definitely stopped asking for their permission. And I still love getting their guidance. And in and through all this, I simply love hearing their stories, and doing my best to carry on the legacy that they leave.
This does make me think about our cultural norms of ‘independence’ and ‘autonomy’ and ‘self-reliance.’ These are accepted and assumed norms in our society. And often it’s easy to reverse engineer Bible verses to support these cultural norms. But, we rarely talk about authority, obedience, or submission. I honestly think we’ve lost sight of having true authority in our lives. Yes, I would readily agree that our parents do not represent that authority at some point early in our adulthood. There should be a clear mark of adulthood and that authority to transition to young men and women as they venture off into the world. But we still live our lives with so many authorities all around us. And all these authorities are not secular. They are sacred because they are under God’s authority. Even Jesus says to Pontius Pilate that the authority has been given by God alone. We have government officials, teachers, police officers, pastors, and more. And we do need to submit. It’s healthy to submit ourselves. If a woman is unmarried who is the authority in her life? Herself? Her father? Her boyfriend? No one? It’s important to answer. It’s funny how we use the phrase “giving her hand in marriage.” Hard to give something if we don’t have it. Hard to ask for something if you don’t recognize the authority of someone who has it?!?
This reminds me of probably the simplest lesson I’ve learned and biggest mistake I’ve made. In the past I have felt the pressure to agree with others or convince others that I’m right in order to resolve a conflict or tension. I don’t have to convince anybody of anything or be convinced. I just need to be very clear on what authority God has given others, what responsibility God has given me, what is the difference between the two. And I also need to be careful to recognize when I need to exercise my responsibility or authority. So, for example, let’s say a young man comes to me and says, “I would like to date your daughter.” Well, if they’re recognizing that I have the responsibility to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ or ‘maybe’ then I need to think about it. If they’re not recognizing my authority and simply patronizing me or humoring my daughter then there’s nothing to answer. But if they are recognizing my leadership and authority, then I can stop and consider it. If they are acknowledging that I’ve protected and provided for this precious joy I used to hold in the palm of my had…ok…let’s have a conversation. And in that conversation we don’t have to negotiate. It’s not really an interview. I don’t have to decide if they are ready or if my daughters ready. I just get to decide if I’m ready. Am I ready to offer that blessing? Am I confident about the boundaries in place? Do I see mutual edification or heartbreak ahead? Do I really believe in my heart that it’s a good path? These are things I have to own, and no one else. And that’s very freeing. I’ve made lot of mistakes in the past in this regard. Had I realized this insight earlier my conversations would’ve been shorter, simpler, and less dramatic. Instead of talking about the issues and making some simple decisions it can devolve into a tug-of-war over who has what authority.
It’s funny if you think about it really. Authority figures don’t have negotiate or explain themselves. They don’t have to get people to come to ask permission. Mentors don’t have to ask people to respect them to come and ask them for advice. This just happens because the authority is recognized by others. I think if we ever have to try and establish our credibility as a leader we’ve already lost it or never had it. And this is a good gut check. Any authority that we have, as Jesus has so eloquently said, only comes from the Father, which I think is awesome for us to know. Jesus says, “You would have no authority…unless it had been given you from above.” So the question is, do fathers have authority? If so, when does that authority cease? It’s pretty obvious when someone’s 2 years old, and it’s not so obvious when they’re 22 years old.
I still find it awkward when people are asking me, “Hey, does so-in-so have to call you?” or “Why do you require this or that?” This is true especially when I am not overtly advertising it or making an issue of it. I think people just know my conviction and so it’s awkward when there’s dissonance or tension. I’m actually on the other end of the continuum. I’m not into policing it. I’m not in favor of micromanaging it. I think when people are pushing back or questioning authority it’s safer to just put it on the other person. So this is what made me think about the difference between permission, blessing, and guidance. I think it’s best to put it on the person who is ultimately submitting rather than the authority. No authority is any stronger than the person who recognizes it. Instead of touting my authority or assuming that I have it I’d rather ask some hard questions about our sense of independence and autonomy. Where is that in the Bible? When was that established? How is our culture influenced us?
So we struggle with authority in family and often church. And yet we’d recognize a police officer, a school principal, or and IRS agent. We file our taxes and willingly submit the penalties if we don’t. If we break the rules, those authority figures have the freedom to adjust our consequences or to enforce them. If someone is asking for my permission, my blessing, or my guidance I also have the responsibility to choose to give that or to withhold it. And my choice is not to give those things out lightly for sure. And I do not choose to let those things be taken from me or to have it presumed upon me. I’m not likely to give a blessing when people come and assume it or talk about how they are going to do what they are going to do no matter what I say. I have enough trust in God to respond in the situation. The proper response is certainly not to judge that person or try to make a dramatic issue of it. But I’m also not going to sit idly by and endorse the behavior either. I’ll have to except the fact that they’re going to do what they’re going to do regardless of my perspective. And they’re gonna have to except the fact that I do not endorse it or support it.
I think when we get into situations like this, when things go sideways or into some intellectual debate, there’s often a deeper issue at play. The tug-of-war over authority and permission is perhaps just a smokescreen on the surface while other issues persist underneath. It could be an issue of insecurity (like when I felt unsure of myself as a dad). It could be an issue that goes back to a wound from many years past. It could be any number of social pressures of play. It could be any number of spiritual forces at play. So I try to remind myself that this is not about me. This is all about God, searching for His will, honoring Him, and loving others in the process. And that love can come from difficult truths to share with each other. So I try to avoid the tug-of-wars and jockeying and positioning when it’s likely just an opportunity to trust God and know His grace and mercy more. I have had to exercise authority in my life and I am under authority. So instead of wondering why people aren’t showing me respect or honor I should just flip the script and practice it myself. Recently, whenever I’m feeling this way I will often practice this by calling my dad and mom and thanking them for their influence in my life. I also practice this with mentors and pastors who I submit to in their authority.
When I go to those authorities and ask ,”why do we have have to do this?” Sometimes they ask me, “Why not?” What is my true reason for resisting? What harm could come from some honest conversations about someone’s intentions and plans with someone that is sacred in my life? Debating back-and-forth as to whether or not to have a conversation seems to defeat the whole purpose. It feels awkward. I call it “talking about talking” be just having the conversation as things arise naturally. I wonder as Christians if we over-engineer things, over-complicate things, or over- spiritualize things? I’d like to keep it a bit simpler: There’s a daughter, there’s a dad, there’s a young man who’s interested in her. Why not go have a conversation? Why not go ask the father’s permission and blessing? Why not build a relationship? It’s not complicated. But it does take courage. And sadly, it is very countercultural even in many Christian contexts. I’ve been reminded many times by my kids that it’s often not fun being in the social context we live in. I get it. Yes, it’s hard. Yes, it takes courage. Yes, chivalry has become a lost art and discipline. But all Dennis Rainey (along with me now) is asking for is a conversation. That’s certainly a better deal than seven years of manual labor that Jacob had to do to marry the woman he was attracted to. 🙂 Yes perhaps I’m a naive idealist. But I’m still hoping that a young man will call me and say, “I’m interested in your daughter. I know you’ve raised her since she was born. I’m just just curious about you and your family. I want to get to know you. I want to know what your expectations are. I want to know what you’ve learned. I want to share with you my heart and my ideas and my story too.” Is that too much to ask? Maybe so. Sometimes I don’t know.
Yes, it’s true, the Bible does not dictate these practices. But I believe many are assumed in many places and on multiple levels. There are a lot of things Scripture where the truth is simply assumed instead of dictated (starting with the very existence of God). This leads me to say, “Oh yeah…God didn’t say it explicitly. But, perhaps He didn’t think He had to?!?” Then, on the other hand, we have our governmental laws and cultural norms. Some are far more explicit than the Bible (even Leviticus). I have in my possession a 2-page dress code from our Christian private school for Prom. As I read it I thought perhaps it more of an indicator of managing declining expectations than actually promoting godly behavior. What if the simple policy was that every young man had to go talk with the girls father or mother or guardian and every young woman simply had to ask her father or mother or guardian approval for their attire and plan? That’s not a long policy to write. But it’s a very hard policy to do in our culture.
The Bible is often concise and clear. Here’s what is in the Bible: “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” I know what it’s like to have sons and daughters. I know what it’s like to go to weddings. What happens in between has been quite a journey. And sometimes those milestones along the journey are less clear for us. Why do we say that someone’s an adult because they turn 18? Well, I’m sure that’s written somewhere in the laws the United States of America. My brother-in-law Matt who is an attorney told me that hard copies of US Laws would fill an entire wall of bookshelves. But letting the US government tell us who we are seems more like nationalism not Christianity. Am I going let the federal government tell my kids when they’re an adult?!? am I waiting for the federal government to define my authority that’s been given to me by God? And what does it even mean to be adult? The word adult is not even in the Bible, just like the word boyfriend is not either. So there’s a journey that we have to go on to wrestle with these questions. I’d rather go on that journey with lots of conversations rather than lots of assumptions. I’d rather err on the side of over-honoring authorities, over-honoring the sacred relationships I have with my children, and over-blessing families we engage with.
There are so many men who have been with me on this journey. And writing this makes me remember them and the conversations I’ve had with them. In some cases the conversations were just with me. In some cases, they were with one of my sons. In some cases it was both. I remember several beautiful and messy situation’s when we are collaborating together. I remember situations that we’re uncertain or we needed more guidance from the Holy Spirit. None of the conversations or relationships have ever perfect. But I hope that every person in the end has appreciated the experience, learned something, and been challenged. Here’s a list of those men. (I put them in alphabetical order just had a list was objective, and no one will try to figure out the all the chronology or which conversations were more better than the others. :-))
Clay Barber, Lane Barber, Brandon Bernard, Chris Blocker, Jack Blocker, Ryan Blocker, Dempsey Butler, Connor Gaydos, Mark Gaydos, Ronnie Girouard, John Hawkins, Michael Held, Dan Herrington, Jett Herrington, Frank LaRusso, Pete McIndoe, Jonathan Mocek, Tim Niznik, Cesar Otega, Ben Parkinson, Bryce Ramey, Robert Rice, Charles Chambley, Jack Sheffield, John Sheffield, Barry Steiger, Ben Ridings, Kevin Zust
I’m thankful for all that I’ve learned. I’m thankful for all these conversations and relationships. I’m thankful to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for continuing to guide me. Here are just a few of the lessons. I’ve learned over the years as I’ve matured in this process.
⁃ Trust God above all else. He loves everyone involved far more than I ever could. And His wisdom is the ultimate guide.
⁃ Keep the conversations going, and the relationships going. Avoiding the conversation or short-circuiting them or talking around them never seems to work.
⁃ Take genuine interest in the other individuals and families. It’s all an opportunity for discipleship and edification.
⁃ Love and learn. Through the wins and losses there always seems to be something we can learn to be more in the image of Christ, and to glorify Him more.
⁃ Don’t fall into the same trap that Adam did before the fall. We are not meant to be passive or silent. We are not meant to try to blame or take control. It’s good and godly for us to take initiative and to speak. It’s good for us to step forward instead of stepping backwards even when stepping forward can be a bit sloppy.
God I pray for Your grace and mercy for all the mistakes that I made in the past. And I pray for all the opportunities that I have in the future. Maybe we honor and glorify You and everything we do! And may we honor other families who join us in the call to Abraham: To be a family that blesses all families in the world!
Amen